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Open letter on current serious shortcomings on aquasuite / development suggestions

lundi 25 août 2014, 15:51

Today I wrote an email to Aqua Computer explaining my disappointment on major shortcomings on the aquasuite software controlling an aquaero I just recently purchased. As I think these points need to get as much attention as possible I decided to copy-paste my mail here, to have other people express their support for these features and for also have their say.

"
Hi!
Over the weekend I got the time to familiarize myself with the aquasuite software. Setting up the hardware for my new system my first impressions were no short of being enthusiastically impressed with my newly purchased aquaero 6 Pro. But unfortunately as I got to set up the aquasuite software to control all the fans in my system I was in for a near total let down. There are a couple of things. The first one is that you can not assign multiple curve controllers to one and same fan output. The second one is that you can only have a total of four curve controllers.

Now if this is not just due to me obviously not yet knowing to how to use the software properly but an implemented limitation, the fact that you can have only one curve controller per output is an absolutely essential and basic flaw. Also the number of simultaneous present curve controllers is way, way too low. It should be at least around fifteen, preferably much more.

Allow me to try to explain my point of view. When the usual situation is that you have at least several components inside your computer case that generates a large amount of heat, CPU, GPU, certain motherboard hot spots and other possible sources and you have a fan, possibly several, connected to a same single output on aquaero in such a configuration, that this or these fans provide or affect on the cooling of more than one of these parts, then assigning only a one curve controller that is defined by only a one temperature sensor to this particular output will leave these fans completely unaware of the other critical temperatures of other components they should know about and to spin up and cool accordingly when they heat up. As of current you have to make the daunting choice which one(s) you think is less worse to possibly be subjected to heat generated and not cooled when appropriate. To manage things properly in addition to having the ability to assign more curve controllers to a same output you could need at least quadruple the amount of curve controllers you can currently create in a large case with many fans.

I come from using SpeedFan. I've been using that great free software for some time before I decided to update my system and at the same purchase aquaero 6 Pro. Now unfortunately these elementary deficiencies I'm facing with the aquasuite are very nearly a deal breaker for me and I have seriously been thinking about returning the product. The reason why I brought up SpeedFan is that it is a perfect example how the aquasuite should work and then top it in many ways - this is what would happen if these two things I'm writing here about were fixed. In SpeedFan you can assign unlimited (to my better knowledge) number of curve controllers to one fan output and then select to have it operate with the max speed indicated by any given curve created or have it operate with the sum of the speeds of the curves. I also think there is no limit on the number of concurrent curves. Why should there be? I'd be willing to say it to be a reasonable estimate that they won't reserve so much resources that that number should be artificially limited. Third important thing I'm seeing missing in aquasuite is a hysteresis option for the controllers (for explanation see picture below). I'm sure you could very well be familiar with SpeedFan, but I'll put a link to a picture I created just in case right down here to illustrate what I'm talking about:

SpeedFan advanced fan setup (TinyPic)

As customer who likes to make a difference and be a part in helping to drive a product to develop into an even better I would be wonderfully thrilled to hear that you would be ready to give these revision propositions a real consideration in your forthcoming program updates. Hearing this would also help me personally in decision keeping the product for now and have hope that someday these shortcomings will be fixed and that there's an absolutely awesome product to be owned and to told your friends and other forum members on the Internet about!
"

lundi 25 août 2014, 17:01

I think that you need to look at the Virtual temperature sensors in Aquasuite.

Remember that even though you setup the Curve Controllers in Aquasuite, they are actually implemented in the Aquaero itself, and operate when Aquasuite is not running.

The Aquaero has memory limitations that would prevent 15 Curve Controllers.

After using the Aquaero6 XT in two of my builds over the past year I find that there is nothing on the market that has all the capabilities of the Aquaero/Aquasuite combination.

RodeoGeorge

lundi 25 août 2014, 17:49

I think that you need to look at the Virtual temperature sensors in Aquasuite.

Remember that even though you setup the Curve Controllers in Aquasuite, they are actually implemented in the Aquaero itself, and operate when Aquasuite is not running.

The Aquaero has memory limitations that would prevent 15 Curve Controllers.

After using the Aquaero6 XT in two of my builds over the past year I find that there is nothing on the market that has all the capabilities of the Aquaero/Aquasuite combination.

RodeoGeorge
I don’t know the physical memory size on aquaero, but when talking about storage memory limitations I would estimate you could fit roughly a hundred power/temperature curves into a single megabit. RAM shouldn’t be an issue either, as you look at memory usage of an active running SpeedFan and it’s in a much more complicated OS environment. I should note that I’m not a coder and mainly using common sense.

I had yet to look at the virtual temperature sensors. It looks like this might partially settle the lack of features I’m describing. I’ll probably be a little happier now with this, than how it looked for a while. Thanks for pointing me to right direction!

Ce message a été modifié 5 fois. Dernière modification effectuée par "cool&quiet" (25 août 2014, 17:59)

lundi 25 août 2014, 20:46

I now tried to set the fans to behave as I want them to to best of my abilities by taking advantage of the virtual sensors wa3pnt pointed. They did provide a passable solutions that will have to suffice in lack of a better one, but only with the use of the offsets to their maximum limits to different temperature sensors. This also almost turned out to be an unusable solution because the limited +-10 offset boundaries weren’t quite enough for balancing the control for desired behavior from each sensor when using the “highest temperature” mode. This garbles the temperature readings for display purposes, but there is no choice.

I almost get the impression that this has been designed for users with their whole system behind one or two liquid cooled loop where much is stacked together temperature and cooling wise, neglecting users with air cooled systems, especially more advanced ones. Aqua Computer needs to get these few basic stuffs fixed. Like I said we’d then have an awesome product.

lundi 25 août 2014, 21:42

Hi cool&quiet,

I think you identified the main problem in your last post. In my opinion Aquaero is built to cater to the water cooling crowd. In that regard it has features that no competitor has even come close to replicating.

Unfortunately, it seems less well suited for your application. I actually think that with the flexibility you are looking for, SpeedFan was your best choice.

Kind regards,
Boris.

lundi 25 août 2014, 22:20

SpeedFan has its issues, too. Those issues are the reason why I was looking for more solid solution. For one with SpeedFan it’s throwing dice what options you motherboard happens to provide for fan control on hardware level and for second how well SpeedFan happens to support that particular motherboard. Motherboard fan outputs are also more limited than standalone solutions - in numbers and for example often having a combined 1 amp current limit. I also liked the idea of software independent cooling system.

aquaero / aquasuite is so close to having the ultimate solution also for air coolers, that it is goofy to see this product not being utilized to its fullest potential with seemingly minor software corrections, for the possibility of increasing the customer pool.

Pilo

Senior Member

mardi 26 août 2014, 06:00

I myself are not satisfied with the Aquaero 5 way back and also with the Aquaero 5+ named 6 and I complained it serveral times over the last years. The outdated aquabus parallel bus for example, could be replaced with a serial bus for better connectivity. But also the limitations of the Aquaero 5 delivering only ~19 Watts per channel with lots of thermal discharge. The last point lead to the Aquaero 6 (rather 5+) I guess.
I complained that the Aquaero 5 is not designed to control large numbers of fans, the aquero 6 now can...but still can't even monitor all their individual fan speeds when more then one fan is connected to one header. I suggest an optional fan controller for at least 8 or 10 fans with aquabus connectivity to an Aquaero made by Aqua Computer for the air cooling faction out there, also some years ago. It's not intended or necessary to make such thing a staff member replied. But I think it would blow away all the other halfhearted fan controllers out there with ease...even the now on the newer Z97 motherboards implanted software guided fan controllers, from Asus for example. Even after years, nothing of this kind is even in far away sight, sadly.
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mardi 26 août 2014, 08:03

The outdated aquabus parallel bus for example, could be replaced with a serial bus for better connectivity.
The aquabus is a serial bus. You can connect 8 powerajust and 4 mps at the same time with 2 Data lines and Gnd / 5V.

mardi 26 août 2014, 14:43

Only one curve controller is needed in a water cooled system. One that is based on Air to water delta temperature. The unique ability of the Aquaero to create virtual sensors based on the difference between two physical sensors makes this possible.

The Aquaero is (as it should be) an independant system with Aquasuite simply a convenient programming and monitoring app that does not need to be running for the system to work.

Even in an air cooled system I don't see the value of having large numbers of curve controllers. How many components realistically need to be individually monitored with individual fan curves. The CPU may be generating heat while the GPU is relatively idle and vice versa but beyond that? Is the motherboard going to be warming while the CPU and GPU aren't? The system still has a normal idle temp profile and loaded temp profile with many individual temps all being effectively reliant on each other or closely linked even if they aren't directly linked through a common water temp as in a water cooled system.

There are other controller type options available like set point and two point that offer larger numbers of controllers without the detailed control of a full curve. The virtual sensors allow for rather than defining many curves and having the system select which one to apply to a header, instead to sort which sensor should be applied to a curve.
With 4 outputs and 8 physical sensors there is plenty of room for very precise control without pointless excess and in the end it is Aqua- computer and Aqua-suite ... the Aqua being the operative part. If the air cooling market was willing to spend Aquaero money there would be lots of competitors simply because of the larger market but there isn't.


If many fans are grouped on a header for common control then what value is there to monitor each individuals speed besides the obvious impossibility of a single header being able to monitor multiple speed signals. The Aquaero 5 can power and control a large number of fans, more than many seem to give it credit for and it can be easily expanded with more headers if needed.

mardi 26 août 2014, 18:39

Only one curve controller is needed in a water cooled system. One that is based on Air to water delta temperature. The unique ability of the Aquaero to create virtual sensors based on the difference between two physical sensors makes this possible.

I'm using an Aquaero6 XT on my last two full water cooling builds, and have spent many hours exploring the Curve Controller function, Virtual Sensors, and Software Sensors (aida64, HWInfo, etc.).

While using the water temperature was interesting, I found that the delay between CPU temperature rise and water temperature rise due to the temperature transfer to the water left the fans "behind the curve".

Using software sensors has the limitation that when I boot into a non-Windows program like Acronis True Image I loose the Software Sensor while in that program.

FOR ME, and I say that because many of us have different views and preferences, the most effective way to provide a sensor input to a curve controller is to physically attach a temperature probe to the side of the CPU die. Not always easy to do, and must be done as the cooling block is being installed. Done properly, it provides near instant reporting of the CPU Temperature, which in my opinion is the most critical item in the system.

Using an Overview page with gauges, I compare this sensor input to Software Sensors from aida64 to kind of certify that is remains accurate.

Here is a shot of my Overview Page and an explanation of the items monitored:




CPU = Temp Probe on side of the i7-4770

CPU PACKAGE aida64 = Software Sensor input for the i7-4770 Package Temp
from the aida64 program

CPU REAR = Temp Probe on the backside of the MB behind CPU

REM = Temp Probe located between the 2nd and 3rd DRAM Modules

VRM = Temp Probe attached to the VRMs

PUMP1 & PUMP2 = the pump speeds of the MCP35X2 Pumps (PWM
Controlled)

LOOP FLOW = is the Flow Rate as measured by a MPS400 Flow Meter

SB = Temp Probe attached to the South Buss (the MPS EXT reminds me that
the Probe is attached to the MPS400 Temp Probe Header)

3IN & 3OUT = the input and output temperatures for the 120X3 Top
Radiator. In line Probes are used at input and output.

4IN & 4OUT = the input and output temperatures for the 120X4 Bottom
Radiator. Again in line probes.

FRONT = RPM of the two SP120 PWM Fans used for input

RAD3 = RPM of the three SP120 PWM Fans pushing the 120X3 Top Radiator

RAD4 = RPM of the four SP120 PWM Fans pushing the Bottom 120X4 Radiator

REAR/PUMP = RPM of the AP140 and 80mm Fans. AP140 is rear case
exhaust. 80mm is on MCP35X2 Heat Sink

DELTA3 & DELTA4 = the differential Temp between INPUT and RAD3/RAD4
output temps

INPUT = Temp Probe located between the two SP120 Fans drawing air in
the front


RodeoGeorge

mercredi 27 août 2014, 04:52

Yes but so what if the fans don't spin up straight away with the CPU temp. The fans are cooling the water so if the water isn't warm they aren't doing anything. CPU temp is directly linked to water temp so I don't even bother to monitor it.

If you link fan speeds to core temps you get even more rapid response but its even more pointless. The core temps can zoom up and down while browsing the internet so fans would be shifting speed constantly. All the while the water they are cooling hasn't changed temp.

Ce message a été modifié 1 fois. Dernière modification effectuée par "Jakusonfire" (27 août 2014, 05:04)

mercredi 27 août 2014, 06:36

The core temps can zoom up and down while browsing the internet so fans would be shifting speed constantly. All the while the water they are cooling hasn't changed temp.
The Core Temperatures and Package Temperature can change drastically in a short period, as visible by a program like aida64.

Using an actual temperature probe on the CPU mitigates this. It reacts more to an average increase or decrease.

And since one of the main purposes of the water cooling system is to cool the CPU, having the fans react to a CPU temperature increase that will eventually be transferred to the water, helps stabilize the water as the heat transfer occurs and greatly reduces the CPU temperature increase.

There are as many theories on how to control a system as there are people. I've tried many, and find that what I'm using best maintains the lowest temperatures possible.

RodeoGeorge

mercredi 27 août 2014, 21:18

The core temps can zoom up and down while browsing the internet so fans would be shifting speed constantly. All the while the water they are cooling hasn't changed temp.
The Core Temperatures and Package Temperature can change drastically in a short period, as visible by a program like aida64.

Using an actual temperature probe on the CPU mitigates this. It reacts more to an average increase or decrease.
Yeah, and simply using water temp is an even more average increase and decrease. The CPU is cooled by the water, the water is cooled by the fans. If the water isn't changing temp the fans aren't affecting CPU temp.
Its a nice image to have of a CPU glowing warm while heat slowly trickles, eventually into the water, but there is a reason we use copper blocks and thermal paste. It happens very fast, and CPU temp is locked to water temp. The CPU doesn't warm up and then cool back down when the water temp is finally affected and fans kick in.



There may be many theories about lots of things but in most cases that does not make them all equally valid or realistically useful.

It doesn't matter how speedily fans are controlled, they only affect water temp, and only water temp affects CPU temp. While ever water temp changes slowly , and by definition the cooling that is applied to the CPU, then changing fan speeds faster is pointless. You can't pre-emptively cool it ... only control the rate it warms. The end result temps will always be the same unless the fans spin faster and noisier ... its just a matter of the speed of transition.

Say the CPU temp sensor suddenly jumps by 10C ... if that controls fan speed then the fans spin up. So what happens then? does the water drop in temp? No, it can't because it is always bound by how close it is to ambient. So the water just warms more slowly because the fans are running up to speed already. But the cooling applied to the CPU is the same water temperature it is either way. The Water temp and the CPU temp with it, simply moves more slowly to the same max air/water delta end result.

apw63

Junior Member

jeudi 28 août 2014, 01:35

The core temps can zoom up and down while browsing the internet so fans would be shifting speed constantly. All the while the water they are cooling hasn't changed temp.
The Core Temperatures and Package Temperature can change drastically in a short period, as visible by a program like aida64.

Using an actual temperature probe on the CPU mitigates this. It reacts more to an average increase or decrease.
Yeah, and simply using water temp is an even more average increase and decrease. The CPU is cooled by the water, the water is cooled by the fans. If the water isn't changing temp the fans aren't affecting CPU temp.
Its a nice image to have of a CPU glowing warm while heat slowly trickles, eventually into the water, but there is a reason we use copper blocks and thermal paste. It happens very fast, and CPU temp is locked to water temp. The CPU doesn't warm up and then cool back down when the water temp is finally affected and fans kick in.



There may be many theories about lots of things but in most cases that does not make them all equally valid or realistically useful.

It doesn't matter how speedily fans are controlled, they only affect water temp, and only water temp affects CPU temp. While ever water temp changes slowly , and by definition the cooling that is applied to the CPU, then changing fan speeds faster is pointless. You can't pre-emptively cool it ... only control the rate it warms. The end result temps will always be the same unless the fans spin faster and noisier ... its just a matter of the speed of transition.

Say the CPU temp sensor suddenly jumps by 10C ... if that controls fan speed then the fans spin up. So what happens then? does the water drop in temp? No, it can't because it is always bound by how close it is to ambient. So the water just warms more slowly because the fans are running up to speed already. But the cooling applied to the CPU is the same water temperature it is either way. The Water temp and the CPU temp with it, simply moves more slowly to the same max air/water delta end result.


:thumbup: :thumbup:
Great explanation of the theory we water coolers live by. I could not have explained it any better.

jeudi 28 août 2014, 10:38

I also agree with Jakusonfire. You can make the control parameters as complicated as you like, but in the end not so much is necessary. Trying to compensate for every transient temperature spike is going to make for the fans ramping up and down constantly.
I've been using Air/Water delta t along with curve controllers since I bought my first Aquaero, and it's worked fine for me.

Like everything, it's a learning process. With experience you will see what is needed and what isn't.