To me it makes more sense to put a water temp sensor either after the cpu or gpu and use that vs ambient to run fans and pumps. Possibly even before and after radiators.
No offense but putting water temp sensors on either end of the res makes no sense to me at all.

On my rig my inline water temps are
before radiators
after radiators
after cpu
after gpu's

I have 2xAquaero Pro's and I use two Ambient air sensors for each one. These are averaged and used along with the after gpu's temp to derive Delta t.
Since I use the after gpu's water temp in the calculation of Delta t for both units I have two flat sensor ribbons inside one housing, each feeding to a different Aquaero. (would be nice if both Aquaero's could see temps from each other hint hint Aquacomputer)

Anyway, however you use it, enjoy your Aquaero. I know I love mine.
It's early but I think I got that right, lol still on first coffee.

Its nice and interesting to have all kinds of sensor data but not altogether that useful.

What is important is ambient temp and water temp. I use 3 intake sensors and use the lowest of them as ambient temp (other wise ambient goes up a little with load), that gives me a nice flat graph line. A sensor after the GPU provides water temp.
Those temps are used to create an Air/water delta temp and it is used with a curve controller for all fans.

I don't totally understand basing radiator fan speed on rad in/out delta's ... its the fan's speed that makes the difference to the delta so the fans are being controlled based on themselves somewhat.

I tried out using curve controllers on my USB d5"s but it just made them easier to hear with them changing speed all the time. I just have them set to a speed that provides decent flow.

All fan speed settings are more or less arbitrary if you have enough radiator capacity. I use the air/water delta since it works just as well as anything else.
I don't bother raising fan speeds until the delta increases to around +2C. So basically unless I'm benching I never hear my fans at 600-800 rpm.

...and yes, all the data isn't necessary, but if you can have it , why not? Just one of those things that make tweaking fun.

Zitat von »Jakusonfire«

I don't totally understand basing radiator fan speed on rad in/out delta's ... its the fan's speed that makes the difference to the delta so the fans are being controlled based on themselves somewhat.

In my cooling setup, the rad in/out delta provides a much more immediate indicator of whether or not the system is under load. The water/air delta is a slower and more gradual increase or decrease. Both the rad in/out delta.....and the water/air delta.....are impacted by fan speed, so I'm not sure I follow why you think one makes sense and one doesn't.

In my home...the ambient air temp goes up about 1.5 c and then back down 1.5 c about every 20 minutes based on the central air system kicking in and turning on and off. So the ambient air temp graph looks like this nice slow and gentle wave....going up and down by 1.5 c. While idling....the coolant temp does the same thing...but its about 1c higher han ambient. However, because the coolant temp changes lag the ambient air temp changes....I end up with the high point of the wave for the ambient air temp....coinciding with the low point of the wave for the coolant temp. And vice versa for the low point of the wave for the ambient air temp. This creates this situation where my water/air delta fluctuates by up to 2c or more every twenty minutes....just based on where my central air system is in the off/on cycle. Not a huge deal or a problem.....but it means I would have to set my threshold to more like 3c for the water/air delta...in order for it to be doing anything effective with changing fan speed. That was wordy....but I hope it makes sense.

On the other hand....the rad in/out delta is a much more constant number when the system is idling. It fluctuates between 0.1 and 0.3 degrees celcius. So....instead of 2c + fluctuations for my water/air delta while idling....I have 0.2c fluctuations of the rad in/out delta while idling. It's because you don't have to worry about the small changes in ambient room temperature and the lagging change in coolant temp. Also...the rad in/out delta changes almost instantly when the system is under load. Instead of the 0.1 to 0.3 c delta I have when Idling....it immediately goes to around 2 or 3 degrees...depending on what type of load it is. So when the rad in/out delta goes to more than 0.5 degree celcius....I know without a shadow of a doubt that the system is under load. I can't say the same for my water/air delta....because of the lagging coolant temp changes vs ambient air changes already discussed. And when the system load stops....the rad in/out delta returns to almost zero very quickly....while the water/air delta is much more gradual.

I'm still playing with and making changes to how I want my controllers setup ultimately. But in theory....I think it would make a lot of sense to tie most of your radiator fans to the water/air delta....and tie your pump speed to the rad in/out delta. That way, the pumps speed up as soon as there is a load on the system. The fans would speed up once coolant temp raised beyond a certain level....and would continue spinning faster even after the system was no longer under load...because the coolant temp had not cooled back down yet. But of course this would only be effective if your cooling loop responds well to more flow. I have found my GPU's respond very well to more flow. Temps can drop by 2 or 3 degrees more when I have pumps on high....vs what they are on low. My CPU is much less sensitive to flow changes. I've also thought about controlling some of my fans with the rad in/out delta and some with the water/air delta. If you separately control your push and pull fans on a rad....you could use this approach to immediately speeds up the "push" fans when the rad in/out delta increases....and then have the "pull" fans tied to the water/air delta. I'm sure there are probably even more creative ways to use both.

Would love to hear more people's real world experiences in this area. I think the best way to set your controllers is very dependent on your own cooling system. In practice....I notice the same thing Jakusonfire does with the sound of the pumps when they change speed. You can hear the speed change...which is annoying to me. So if your components don't respond effectively to more flow, you will probably want to leave your pump speed alone. I wish that the Aquaero controllers allowed you to select a temp threshold AND a time period that the threshold must have been exceeded. So...something like....control the speed up my pumps....but only if the delta exceeds X for more than X seconds. That would be cool.

Looks to me that if you have multiple radiators with blocks in between you get a very uniform fluid temperature across your loop and so Fluid/ambient delta is the main control value,.


I have a single large radiator so my experience is like cpacris and I use rad IN/OUT delta as the basis for pump and fan control. To avoid annoying pump noise changes as jakusonfire pointed out, so I have only 2 modes - quiet and load.

perhaps if i had purchased Pa2's to control pumps I would have a spare fan channel and used it like sylvainp to control case airflow, at the moment I have a Scythe typhoon running silent, controlled by an Zalman manual fan controller as asus motherboard fan control unreliable after wake up. Maybe next year I will grab a couple of PWM fans and control case air temp from AQ5 pwm headers.


I have 1 fan group(3) controlled via water delta and the second group(6)controlled by water/air , setting the first is easiest as the temperature change is so pronounced, like wise setting up via water/air delta for jakusonfire would be very easy.


I use water/air for the second group because when ASUS EPU fails the system idles at full speed, but load is insufficient to change water delta by much so system slowly gets hotter and hotter. I use a 2 point control for fan group 2 to turn on at 10c and turn off and 5c to limit temperature creep. I guess i have avoided curve control for water/air delta as it changes seasonally.

Zitat von »cpachris«

Zitat von »Jakusonfire«

I don't totally understand basing radiator fan speed on rad in/out delta's ... its the fan's speed that makes the difference to the delta so the fans are being controlled based on themselves somewhat.

In my cooling setup, the rad in/out delta provides a much more immediate indicator of whether or not the system is under load. The water/air delta is a slower and more gradual increase or decrease. Both the rad in/out delta.....and the water/air delta.....are impacted by fan speed, so I'm not sure I follow why you think one makes sense and one doesn't.

That's a great explanation of your setup. I'm sure it will be very helpful to people setting up new systems.

I understand what you mean about Air/water delta's also being affected by fan speed ... it's just that it seems to me that there is a specific difference too. With Rad in/out delta there is no fixed value, in temp can rise, out temp can rise and fan speed (air flow) can rise. With Air/water there is a fixed value .. the ambient. So yes fans do affect the delta, of course they do or it would be useless to control the fans at all.

If you take two identical loops with fixed fan speeds and change the heat load with a GPU benchmark;
The Air/water delta will always change,
while the rad in/out can change briefly with the warmed water hitting the first sensor but once the water goes all the way through the rad the delta drops again, the load is still there but the delta is not.




This graph above shows what I mean. The gap from green to red is rad in/out delta, the Blue to green is GPU in/out
With fixed fans the rad in out stays essentially stable.

At the same time below the Air/water delta of course changes



That is the thing about rad delta's ... they are affected far more by the fan speeds than by anything else, so using them to measure something (like system load) can be troublesome.

Now in real life the controller would no doubt respond to the warm water and speed up fans and I'm sure it works out. Its just that it seems a little less direct to me, thats all. Sure it might be more immediate but the blocks are still getting cold water when the warm water hits your sensor so what does it really matter if fan ramp up is a little slower. You also mentioned an important point ... when the load stops the rad in out delta drops almost instantly so fan speed would drop too. The water is still warm but the system is not cooling it.

All of this is, as mentioned by others, highly subjective to build type and loop arrangement and I'm not saying one is right or wrong. I'm merely trying to share what I have learnt from experience so others can benefit.

Zitat von »Jakusonfire«

If you take two identical loops with fixed fan speeds and change the heat load with a GPU benchmark;
The Air/water delta will always change,
while the rad in/out can change briefly with the warmed water hitting the first sensor but once the water goes all the way through the rad the delta drops again, the load is still there but the delta is not.

This statement is definitely not true for my system. The rad in/out delta stays elevated as long as the heat load exists. It does not drop once the water goes all the way through the rad. As long as I'm running a benchmark....my rad in/out delta stays elevated. True whether its 5 minutes, 20 minutes, or hours. And it should be like this for any system that has adequate radiator space and is generating a sufficient heat load.

Zitat von »Jakusonfire«

This graph above shows what I mean. The gap from green to red is rad in/out delta, the Blue to green is GPU in/out
With fixed fans the rad in out stays essentially stable.

Before I can address this graph, help me understand your loop order, and where these temperatures are being recorded. The rad out temp should be the coolest temp in your loop. The rad in temp should be the hottest temp in your loop. You're saying to look at the gap between green and red lines.....but what temp is the blue line? If the blue line is not your rad out....why is there a cooler spot in your loop than the rad out? If I'm interpreting your post correctly....you are saying that the blue line is the temp before the coolant enters the GPU's. If so...what is between the rad out....and the GPU in? And why would the temp be lower? If you don't have all your radiators together in the loop.....you would need to measure your rad out from the coolest spot in the loop. In your system...that is the blue line. And....there is definitely an elevated gap between the blue line and any other spot in your loop once the heat load is applied. That is how you would measure a rad delta. Coolest spot in your loop vs the hottest spot in your loop.

Zitat von »Jakusonfire«

At the same time below the Air/water delta of course changes



That is the thing about rad delta's ... they are affected far more by the fan speeds than by anything else, so using them to measure something (like system load) can be troublesome.

Yeah....no one is arguing that air/water delta's don't change. But I am asserting that rad in/out delta's change also. And the level of precision that they provide for controller changes far exceeds the level of precision I can get from water/air delta's....simply because of that 1.5 degree fluctuation in ambient room temp every 20 minute central air cycle....where the coolant temp does not respond immediately to the changes in air temp. Your statement about rad delta's being far more affected by fan speeds is not true for my system either. I get similar rad delta's with low speed or high speed on my fans. I think your statement about fan speeds being the largest driver of rad delta's might be true for a system that has inadequate radiator space....but definitely not if you have adequate radiator space.

It's a good discussion....but just continues to prove the point that you really can't make generalizations that hold true for every system. I don't want someone to be steered away from using a rad in/out delta....because depending on your loop, order, radiator space, and external environment.....it may be the best choice by far for you.

Would love to hear more real-world experiences from everyone! Enjoying the thread!

Zitat von »cpachris«

It's a good discussion....but just continues to prove the point that you really can't make generalizations that hold true for every system. I don't want someone to be steered away from using a rad in/out delta....because depending on your loop, order, radiator space, and external environment.....it may be the best choice by far for you.

If you have multiple radiators with blocks in between ( and remember the pump also adds heat to loop) and place your sensors as Jacusonfire has, you really will see limited fluid temperature, because between each of his 3 sensors he has a heat source and a heat sink.(radiator), the only way Jacus can control his fans is by loop/ambient, his alternative is redesign his loop and changing sensor positions.

If you have suitable radiator(s) the in/out delta will always change with realistic loads, if sensors are positioned to capture the change. ( I say realistic loads and suitable radiators as a situation of a over kill radiator with lots of air pressure, unacceptable noise levels and a small load will result in limited in/out delta).

The ambient of my sun room changes 17C over a year, so ambient is not for me or I assume many other people a "constant"!!!

so with abstract sensor placement and a climate controlled environment use water/ambient to control your loop.

But if you dont have climate control - position sensors suitably, run your fans at silent speed and control them by in/out delta "is good advise for people in general".

Would be nice to some how tie together in/out delta and ambient, I just cannot dream up a way of doing it , just too many variables.

Corsair H100i

I would imagine it use a single temperature sensor to measure block or fluid temperature with a simple 3 stage "curve". What is most interesting about this style is that Asetek designed them for OEM (5 year life) market, even the tubing has some sort of metal component so that it does not "breath".

Zitat von »Grasshopper«

Zitat von »cpachris«

It's a good discussion....but just continues to prove the point that you really can't make generalizations that hold true for every system. I don't want someone to be steered away from using a rad in/out delta....because depending on your loop, order, radiator space, and external environment.....it may be the best choice by far for you.

If you have multiple radiators with blocks in between ( and remember the pump also adds heat to loop) and place your sensors as Jacusonfire has, you really will see limited fluid temperature, because between each of his 3 sensors he has a heat source and a heat sink.(radiator), the only way Jacus can control his fans is by loop/ambient, his alternative is redesign his loop and changing sensor positions.

If you have suitable radiator(s) the in/out delta will always change with realistic loads, if sensors are positioned to capture the change. ( I say realistic loads and suitable radiators as a situation of a over kill radiator with lots of air pressure, unacceptable noise levels and a small load will result in limited in/out delta).

The ambient of my sun room changes 17C over a year, so ambient is not for me or I assume many other people a "constant"!!!

so with abstract sensor placement and a climate controlled environment use water/ambient to control your loop.

But if you dont have climate control - position sensors suitably, run your fans at silent speed and control them by in/out delta "is good advise for people in general".

Would be nice to some how tie together in/out delta and ambient, I just cannot dream up a way of doing it , just too many variables.

Corsair H100i

I would imagine it use a single temperature sensor to measure block or fluid temperature with a simple 3 stage "curve". What is most interesting about this style is that Asetek designed them for OEM (5 year life) market, even the tubing has some sort of metal component so that it does not "breath".

No that is not correct at all.

I thought the graphs and explanation were pretty straight forward. The temp sensors are placed like this; water sensor blue, GPU, water sensor green, rad, water sensor red ... then other components. I don't have a block and rad between each sensor at all. All the fans are held at their normal idle speed of about 900 RPM

The fact that the water is cooled by other components in the loop before it comes back to blue sensor does not change the fact that the rad in/out delta does not change by itself ... the fans change the in out delta.
Sure if you have multiple rads joined together for some reason and a low flow rate then warm water will hit the first sensor, the in out delta will be raised so fans will speed and maintain that delta, but it is the fans that maintain it.


"you would need to measure your rad out from the coolest spot in the loop. In your system...that is the blue line. And....there is definitely an elevated gap between the blue line and any other spot in your loop once the heat load is applied. That is how you would measure a rad delta. Coolest spot in your loop vs the hottest spot in your loop."

Ummm No, measuring from "the hottest part of the loop to the coldest" is hardly the same as rad in out. There is an increased gap between the blue line and the others because the GPU is putting out more heat. Blue is before GPU, green is after GPU and before first rad, red is after first rad.
The before GPU to other temps gap changes but the others do not.

Measuring hottest part of the loop to coldest is essentially the same as measuring water block in/out ... a completely different thing. By measuring rad in/out you are effectively measuring how much cooling is being done, which will change with fan speed, not how much heating is being done by heat load. If a loop has all the rads together and all the blocks together why would you not just measure straight first block in/ first block out and therefor actually measure load?

I invite someone to put up a graph showing rad in/out delta changing and holding without fan speed changing.

The temperatures my PC is exposed to changes by a large range through the year too. Which is exactly why I use an Air/water delta. Any system will only cool to a certain point above ambient at idle and load.

I don't know what makes a "Suitable" radiator but the fact is that the in/out delta of a single rad does not change by itself in response to system load, that is just flat wrong. For any delta to change the water needs to be either being heated more or cooled more. A rad does not cool more without more airflow from fan speed changing.
That is why using rad delta is not at all "good advise for people in general". That is recommending people base fan speed on how much cooling is being done by their fans.

Zitat von »Jakusonfire«

I invite someone to put up a graph showing rad in/out delta changing and holding without fan speed changing.

ok.



Just for you...I set my fans all on constant speed controllers, and had them spin at about 900 rpm. It's the purple line at the top, and is the only data element graphed against the right side axis instead of the left. Green area is ambient air...being measure by using an average of two sensors that are both outside the case. Red line is rad in (or hot), and blue line is rad out (or cool). At 12:05 you can see the heat load starts. I ran the Fuzzy-Tessy Donut stress test from EVGA...which puts a large heat load on the system. You can see both the CPU and GPU temps take off at that point. Up until this point...you see the gap between the red and blue line (the rad in/out delta) is very close together. Once the load starts, you see the rad-in temp (red) increase almost immediately....and then the rad-out temp (blue) increases about a minute of two later (after the water has cycled through the radiators). The gap between the red and blue (the rad in/out delta) goes from less than 0.5 degrees celcius...to about 3 degrees celcius....and then stays there as long as the heat load is maintained. I ran it here for 30 minutes just to show you....but it stays the same if I run it for 3 hours.

So this graph represents the rad in/out delta changing when the heatload is applied without fan speed changing. So....now I invite you....to try again in your analysis. You need to give up on your idea that rad delta's only change with fan speed...because I'm proving to you that it's not the case in my system...and you are hearing from other's that it's not the case in their system's either. I'm not going to continue and argue about the same point over and over again...but clearly my experience and data is contradictory to your opinion.

Zitat von »Jakusonfire«

...measuring from "the hottest part of the loop to the coldest" is hardly the same as rad in out. Measuring hottest part of the loop to coldest is essentially the same as measuring water block in/out ... a completely different thing. By measuring rad in/out you are effectively measuring how much cooling is being done, which will change with fan speed, not how much heating is being done by heat load. If a loop has all the rads together and all the blocks together why would you not just measure straight first block in/ first block out and therefor actually measure load?

In a loop where you have all your waterblocks together, and all your rads together....then measuring first block in and last block out....is EXACTLY THE SAME THING as measuring the rad in and rad out. The temperature sensors would be in the same places.


Good luck with your system. I don't want to argue with you. I just don't want false information spread.

Zitat von »sylvainp«

How do you make these graph ?
i could not figure it out so far.
Thanks

In Aquasuite 2013...go to the 'Data Log' section. Within this section, you will use the 'Settings' area to pick some data elements that will be saved for graphing and/or export. Then go to the 'Analyze Data' section to create a graph. It's very easy.

Zitat von »cpachris«

Zitat von »Jakusonfire«

I invite someone to put up a graph showing rad in/out delta changing and holding without fan speed changing.

ok.



Just for you...I set my fans all on constant speed controllers, and had them spin at about 900 rpm. It's the purple line at the top, and is the only data element graphed against the right side axis instead of the left. Green area is ambient air...being measure by using an average of two sensors that are both outside the case. Red line is rad in (or hot), and blue line is rad out (or cool). At 12:05 you can see the heat load starts. I ran the Fuzzy-Tessy Donut stress test from EVGA...which puts a large heat load on the system. You can see both the CPU and GPU temps take off at that point. Up until this point...you see the gap between the red and blue line (the rad in/out delta) is very close together. Once the load starts, you see the rad-in temp (red) increase almost immediately....and then the rad-out temp (blue) increases about a minute of two later (after the water has cycled through the radiators). The gap between the red and blue (the rad in/out delta) goes from less than 0.5 degrees celcius...to about 3 degrees celcius....and then stays there as long as the heat load is maintained. I ran it here for 30 minutes just to show you....but it stays the same if I run it for 3 hours.

So this graph represents the rad in/out delta changing when the heatload is applied without fan speed changing. So....now I invite you....to try again in your analysis. You need to give up on your idea that rad delta's only change with fan speed...because I'm proving to you that it's not the case in my system...and you are hearing from other's that it's not the case in their system's either. I'm not going to continue and argue about the same point over and over again...but clearly my experience and data is contradictory to your opinion.

Zitat von »Jakusonfire«

...measuring from "the hottest part of the loop to the coldest" is hardly the same as rad in out. Measuring hottest part of the loop to coldest is essentially the same as measuring water block in/out ... a completely different thing. By measuring rad in/out you are effectively measuring how much cooling is being done, which will change with fan speed, not how much heating is being done by heat load. If a loop has all the rads together and all the blocks together why would you not just measure straight first block in/ first block out and therefor actually measure load?

In a loop where you have all your waterblocks together, and all your rads together....then measuring first block in and last block out....is EXACTLY THE SAME THING as measuring the rad in and rad out. The temperature sensors would be in the same places.


Good luck with your system. I don't want to argue with you. I just don't want false information spread.

The sensors would not be in the same place .... THEY WOULD BE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WATER PUMP (shouted in caps special for you, does that change how valid it is or something?)
and its not at all the same thing it is the exact reverse of measuring system heat output, it is measuring how much cooling the radiators are doing. So no, not exactly the same thing at all.

Leaving aside the seemingly sub ambient "Average GPU temps".

The Several rads working together in series change from at idle essentially only the first or first two rads cooling the water back to ambient and the following ones doing nothing... to at load all the rads working together to cool the water back to ambient. Cooling capacity is effectively being added without airflow changing. That is why the rad water out temp barely changes. That is all it shows.

In a system that is not so ludicrously over capacity this would never happen.

At a 1GPM flow rate it takes about 250 watts to heat or cool water by 1C. For a 360 radiator to change from cooling 0 to 250W with fans at a steady 1000RPM the water inside it needs to change from 0 to 15C above ambient. So the incoming water temp needs to change by 15C for the in/out delta to change by a single degree.
With steady air flow for the in/out delta to change by another 1C (or the rad to cool another 250W) the incoming water temp needs to double to 30C.

At the same time the airflow produced by the fans can change the watts cooled (and the in/out delta) all the way from near 0 at 0RPM up to doubling the cooling moving from 1000RPM up to 2000RPM

That is why rad in out delta is a poor system for determining system heat output.

Several times I said that yes it might work in specific systems with very specific circumstances, but to recommend it as a superior system for most users is misleading and plain false information.

Effectively what your graph shows is that you are actually using a confused form of an air/water delta controller. The rads are so over capacity that the water is returned to ambient temp. So what you are measuring is water to air delta.
With a water sensor in the same place how is this system any faster or more reactive than a true air/water delta controller. It just isn't. It is the same thing except that at higher temperatures above ambient it becomes corrupted. The in/out delta can stay the same but the incoming water can rise by several degrees.

Thats my analysis.

Its ok Jack, you are doing what I do too often, unable to "see" the other point of view - I justify my own.

Jackusonfire....you seem quite antagonistic about this matter. Lighten up! Couple of corrections....

First, after you insisted my statements were wrong about the rad in/out delta in my sytem changing and holding steady without fan speed changing, ....you "invited anyone" to put up a graph proving you wrong. I did so. And your response is now:

Zitat von »Jakusonfire«

In a system that is not so ludicrously over capacity this would never happen.

So....you've quickly moved from "that would never happen"....to "that would only happen in your system". What seems like over capacity to you might be very normal capacity to others. And it wouldn't take as much radiator space as I have in my system...as long as someone had enough radiator space to cool whatever heat load their system generated. So it could even be a single radiator...if they were only cooling one component that didn't generate a lot of heat. You are insisting something is a bad idea...when in fact it can be a very good idea for systems with adequate radiator space. You may define "adequate" at a much lower threshold than I or others do...but that is a totally different argument than whether a rad in/out delta's can change without fan speed changing. They can change...and I've proved that.

And even though every time I've responded to your comments about rad in/out delta....I've specifically stated that I'm sharing results from my system, or that my statements would hold true for systems with adequate radiator capacity....you seem to keep insinuating that I'm asserting that a rad in/out delta is superior for most users. Like in the quote below...

Zitat von »Jakusonfire«

......but to recommend it as a superior system for most users is misleading and plain false information.

Using your preferred phrasing, I "invite" you to find where someone has recommended it as a superior system for most users. I use water/air delta's also....and both measurements have their places.

When you make blanket statements like....

Zitat von »Jakusonfire«

That is why rad in out delta is a poor system for determining system heat output.

....it leave those of us with adequate radiator space scratching our heads. For my system, the rad in/out delta is the best measurement for determining when my system is under load. I can do so with much greater precision than with my air/water delta...and I can do so more quickly than with my air/water delta. I'm fine if that measurement doesn't work for you. But don't pretend that I'm making blanket statements to cover most users....when you are the only one that has done so in this thread.

Now for one more thought.....

Zitat von »Jakusonfire«

Effectively what your graph shows is that you are actually using a confused form of an air/water delta controller. The rads are so over capacity that the water is returned to ambient temp. So what you are measuring is water to air delta.

You're getting closer!....but you're still not understanding the difference. Yes, since my radiator capacity is sufficient....my loop can come close to returning the coolant to ambient air temperatures. That's a good and desired thing! Not ludicrous. But if you'll go back and read my first response to you...the whole reason that I'm playing with rad in/out delta's is because of how the ambient air temperature changes impact the water/air delta's. Coolant temp changes with the ambient air temperature.....but it doesn't do so immediately. And in a house with a central air conditioning system (probably the majority of forum readers) the thermostat will be turning on/off the heating/cooling at intervals to maintain the desired ambient air temperature. Here in early summer in Oklahoma....my central air unit comes on to cool for about 10 minutes...and then is off for about 10 minutes. It creates a 20 minute cycle where the ambient air temperature goes up by about 1.5 degrees Celsius and then falls by 1.5 degrees Celsius. The graph looks like a gentle rolling sine wave. The coolant does not react immediately to the ambient air temp changes. It lags....as would be expected. So the gentle rolling sine wave for the coolant temperature readings has different high and low spots than the ambient air temp high and low spots. The changing ambient air temperature causes the water/air delta to expand and contract....just because the water temperature changes lag the air temperature changes. It causes the water/air delta to change....without any change happening in heat load or fan speed. The change is usually within a 2 degree band....so if I wanted to live with that....I could simply set my controller not to speed up fans until the water/air delta increased by more than 3 degrees Celcius. Not a big deal....and probably sufficient for most.

If you can follow that discussion above, then I can address this statement:

Zitat von »Jakusonfire«

.....how is this system any faster or more reactive than a true air/water delta controller. It just isn't. It is the same thing except that at higher temperatures above ambient it becomes corrupted.

My rad in/out delta is faster and more reactive at determining whether my sytem is under load. It just is. And it doesn't become "corrupted" above ambient temperatures. When I use the rad in/out delta....it eliminates the 2 degree band of changing water/air delta that was created only by the cycle of the central air unit. When my rad in/out delta exceeds 0.5......I know without a shadow of a doubt that my system is now under load. It allows me to adjust fan speed or pump speed at that point, instead of waiting for the water/air delta to exceed 3 degrees Celcius like I would need to with a water/air delta to ensure the fans/pumps only ramp up when the system is under load. If I tried to maintain the same precision with an air/water delta.....that I'm able to with a rad in/out delta....the controller would be speeding up my fans all the time unnecessarily because of this 2 degree band of changing water/air delta that has nothing to do with whether the system is under load or not. It's created only by the changing ambient air temperature and the lag in the changing of the coolant temperature.

I've now done my best at explaining why I'm playing with rad in/out delta's and why I disagreed with some of the blanket statements you made. But I don't want to continue it anymore. If it doesn't make sense to you at this point....I'll either accept that I'm not explaining it very well, or that you're not understanding it very well. How about we just agree that it works well for my system....that it works poorly for your system....and that everyone else will have to make their own determination? Cool? Tired of going back and reading your posts that have been edited 12 times....changes too often for me to even know how to respond.

Like I mentioned in one of my earlier posts....I'm playing with the use of both rad in/out deltas and with water/air deltas in my system. I may use one for my push fans and one for my pull fans. Or I may use the rad in/out delta for my pumps. For my system....it might make sense to use my rad in/out delta for the early indicator that system is under load and to speed up the "push" fans. And then once the water/air delta exceeds an acceptable threshold...I could use it to speed up the "pull" fans. Would still be very interested in hearing how others may have thought about using different measurements in their controllers. Lets return this thread to the sharing of useful information on how we've used controllers in our systems!