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maximum fan output selection for controller?
Dienstag, 29. Januar 2013, 23:35
hi folks 
,
I'm a rookie in water cooling and I'm just planning to assemble my first rig. I'm planning to buy aquaero controller since it is the most complete hardware/software combo out there. yet I'm not sure if multiple fan controllers can be defined for a SINGLE FAN and then select the maximum RPM out of those controllers to govern a fan.
the reason I think I need it is as follows:
I'm going to use a single loop and my aim is MINIMUM FAN RPM , thus minimum noise, while keeping the computer alive. no overclocking, no maximum cooling, just minimal noise. so I'm thinking that I need to assign three fan controllers for the radiator fans (that would be controlled with the same fan controller profile) with the following profiles:
1. 20% power if GPU temp is up to 40. then increase linearly and max out at GPU temp to 60.
2. 20% power if CPU temp is up to 40. then increase linearly and max out at GPU temp to 60.
3. 20% power if water temp is up to 30. then increase linearly and max out at GPU temp to 40.
averaging the tempeatures is dangerous, for example, assume that water and GPU are cool enough yet my CPU is under load and it can use more cooling yet controllers, using the average temp as the gague, thinks it is providing enough fan RPM. selecting the maximum temp would be dangerous, too. assume for example a situation which GPU has the highest temp ouf of the three and it is around 50, so fan is not pushed to max. yet who knows, maybe water is already passed over designated 40 yet controller is using the higher temperature, in this case, GPU, as its guague.
(I hope I could have described the sitation clear enogh.
)
so bottom line: is it possible to define more than one fan controller and use the max of those to drive fans?
any ideas is appreciated,
cherers
,I'm a rookie in water cooling and I'm just planning to assemble my first rig. I'm planning to buy aquaero controller since it is the most complete hardware/software combo out there. yet I'm not sure if multiple fan controllers can be defined for a SINGLE FAN and then select the maximum RPM out of those controllers to govern a fan.
the reason I think I need it is as follows:
I'm going to use a single loop and my aim is MINIMUM FAN RPM , thus minimum noise, while keeping the computer alive. no overclocking, no maximum cooling, just minimal noise. so I'm thinking that I need to assign three fan controllers for the radiator fans (that would be controlled with the same fan controller profile) with the following profiles:
1. 20% power if GPU temp is up to 40. then increase linearly and max out at GPU temp to 60.
2. 20% power if CPU temp is up to 40. then increase linearly and max out at GPU temp to 60.
3. 20% power if water temp is up to 30. then increase linearly and max out at GPU temp to 40.
averaging the tempeatures is dangerous, for example, assume that water and GPU are cool enough yet my CPU is under load and it can use more cooling yet controllers, using the average temp as the gague, thinks it is providing enough fan RPM. selecting the maximum temp would be dangerous, too. assume for example a situation which GPU has the highest temp ouf of the three and it is around 50, so fan is not pushed to max. yet who knows, maybe water is already passed over designated 40 yet controller is using the higher temperature, in this case, GPU, as its guague.
(I hope I could have described the sitation clear enogh.
)so bottom line: is it possible to define more than one fan controller and use the max of those to drive fans?
any ideas is appreciated,
cherers
RE: maximum fan output selection for controller?
Mittwoch, 30. Januar 2013, 02:01
I'm a bit of a rookie with the system myself, but I don't believe what you're describing is possible. Given your goals, if you have an accurate way to measure the temperature of your coolant (I believe Aqua sells a product that ties into the Aquaero 5), I would base fan speeds off of that directly as that determines the temps that the components will reach. Also, keep in mind that water changes temperature more slowly than air cooled solutions do, so you'll probably want to be moderately aggressive in setting the temperature at which fan speeds reach 100%. Given that you have no desire to overclock, I would suggest 100% fan speed at a water temp of 35-40 deg C.so bottom line: is it possible to define more than one fan controller and use the max of those to drive fans?
any ideas is appreciated,
cherers
It'll take some experimentation on your part.
RE: RE: maximum fan output selection for controller?
Mittwoch, 30. Januar 2013, 08:00
Thanks a bunch for your reply! Yet I think that based on the fact that GPU or CPU blocks will have a certain thermal resistance, as they inject heat inside the water, they create a temperature gradient. in other words, CPU and/or GPU temperature is not necessarily the same as the water. I think it might be anything between 5-25 degrees higher. so basing your fan power on just the water temperature seems a little bit risky.I would base fan speeds off of that (water) directly as that determines the temps that the components will reach.
P.S: speedfan has this option to select the maximum RPM if I still recall how it used to work ....
cheers ,
Sonntag, 3. Februar 2013, 23:44
Wow that is a really complicated system you describe and I can't see any benefit to it.
The Aquaero controls the speed of fans ... which cool the water ... as long as the water is kept to a low temperature the cooling effect on the water blocks is the same. The CPU and GPU temps will jump up and down with varying load but water temperature will stay relatively stable and change slowly.
The best way to control your cooling is to base the speed of your fans on the difference between the ambient air temperature and the temperature of your water. You do this by creating a virtual sensor.
You then apply that virtual sensor to a curve controller or multiple controllers so that all fan speeds climb as the water to air delta ( temp difference) climbs.
That way the fans stay at low speed when your computer is idling and speed up slowly when you put it under load. They will also then stay at higher speeds til your coolant has dropped back down in temperature after you stop using your PC.
Basing your fan speeds just on water temperature would mean your fans will speed up if the air temperature rises even though it would give no benefit.
Excellent point! I'm gonna try your water-air temp delta controller suggestion.
Dienstag, 5. Februar 2013, 00:03
My advice. Keep it simple, use water temp.
Yea - i set up ased on water- air temp and the fans run for a. Bery long time trying to match the two temps even with a startup temp of 2oC difference. It works, maybe a bit of tweaking with a "shut off fans" delta T would be good. But.... I went back to water temp.
Jacksonfire's suggestion is a good one, with a start and stop delta T defined. AS2012 has start, but not stop parameters.
Dienstag, 5. Februar 2013, 05:32
0% on the fan curve = 0 volts = stop.AS2012 has start, but not stop parameters.
The biggest issue I have with using dT to determine fan speed is that the system won't compensate at all for changes in ambient. If your ambient is pretty steady year round this isn't an issue, but if your ambient is 65 deg F in the winter and 85-90+ in the summer like it is for me you might want to consider using straight water temp instead of dT. Sure, it'll be noisier in the summer, but that's because it needs more cooling when ambient is high. To me, that's acceptable.
Dienstag, 5. Februar 2013, 06:33
Their is a startup temp in the curve controller just don't check the box that says hold minimum power in the fan setup. I set the curve controller to 0% power lower than the startup temp I wanted just to make sure.0% on the fan curve = 0 volts = stop.AS2012 has start, but not stop parameters.
The biggest issue I have with using dT to determine fan speed is that the system won't compensate at all for changes in ambient. If your ambient is pretty steady year round this isn't an issue, but if your ambient is 65 deg F in the winter and 85-90+ in the summer like it is for me you might want to consider using straight water temp instead of dT. Sure, it'll be noisier in the summer, but that's because it needs more cooling when ambient is high. To me, that's acceptable.
Dienstag, 5. Februar 2013, 09:58
Why would you ever want your fans to stop?
The air / water delta will never be zero so depending on your system capabilities you set a curve controller ... mine is set to max the fans at a 10C delta and fans 0% at -1C delta
The system automatically balances itself to about a 4.5C delta at idle and 1000RPM and the load delta is about 7.5C at just over 1500RPM
If you just use water temperature then you have to keep adjusting everything depending of the temperature of the room. If you have to do that then what is the point of using an expensive system like the Aquaero. You can connect a water sensor to any cheap fan controller. The whole point of using air / water deltas is that it doesn't make any difference what the air temperature is ... You always get the best possible cooling, any more is a waste of noise.
I thought this was the reason people bought these systems, its not that complicated.
Air in temperature stays the same ... water temp goes up so Air/water delta goes up so fans speed up.
The air / water delta will never be zero so depending on your system capabilities you set a curve controller ... mine is set to max the fans at a 10C delta and fans 0% at -1C delta
The system automatically balances itself to about a 4.5C delta at idle and 1000RPM and the load delta is about 7.5C at just over 1500RPM
If you just use water temperature then you have to keep adjusting everything depending of the temperature of the room. If you have to do that then what is the point of using an expensive system like the Aquaero. You can connect a water sensor to any cheap fan controller. The whole point of using air / water deltas is that it doesn't make any difference what the air temperature is ... You always get the best possible cooling, any more is a waste of noise.
I thought this was the reason people bought these systems, its not that complicated.
Air in temperature stays the same ... water temp goes up so Air/water delta goes up so fans speed up.
Dienstag, 5. Februar 2013, 15:09
In my particular case, the top fan is weird. I get much better idle temps with it on, but much better gaming load temps with it off. So I have it set to turn off when GPU temp reaches a certain point.Why would you ever want your fans to stop?
You wouldn't need to change the curves based on season if you used water temp instead of dT, but you might need to settle for a higher base dT. Fans start at water temp of 30, ramp to max by water temp 40. If you're benching, that wouldn't work, but most people set fans to 100% for benching runs anyway. Everyone's different, and the Aquaero can support a fair number of different options. That's the beauty of it, I just want to make sure he knows his options.
Mittwoch, 6. Februar 2013, 02:41
It took me a while but I eventually came around to operating on air/water Deta t. However I can see situations where one might want to change fan speeds based on other than water temperature.
Some motherboard components such as pch can run pretty hot, then there might be consideration for other equipment such as PA2's being undervolted. Fortunately I have a pretty roomy case/pedestal system so airflow is decent.
Do some of you actually see 10c delta between air and water? I don't think I've ever seen over 3c difference, and I do quite a bit of overclocked benching. That is what finally brought me around to using air/water delta input for curve controllers as hearing the fans ramp up constantly was quite noisy, and unneeded.
I will admit I have overkill on radiators, though, but they are doing exactly as I planned. Less fan rpm and a quieter machine overall.
That's the beauty of having giant cases with pedestals and separate sections or the like. It allows uninterrupted and unpolluted airflow for great deltas.
In a regular PC case a delta of anything under 10 is considered good.
I have seen lots of people claim very low deltas at all times and I always have to wonder if their sensor setup is really giving accurate results because to achieve that requires an extraordinarily efficient system. Without enormous rads the water temp simply has to be higher according to the laws of thermodynamics ... more heat energy is dispersed at higher temp differences. It takes a much larger surface area to disperse a couple hundred watts at 2C compared to 10C
Mittwoch, 6. Februar 2013, 14:06
Yeah I suppose I see very low deltas compared to some. Here I've been fussing around with calibration, and controlling over a 3c increase in water temps under load, lol. My setup has been very efficient at cooling all along. I guess having those two 480mm radiators in the pedestal gives them enough isolation to be really good, then I have a 240mm in the case.It took me a while but I eventually came around to operating on air/water Deta t. However I can see situations where one might want to change fan speeds based on other than water temperature.
Some motherboard components such as pch can run pretty hot, then there might be consideration for other equipment such as PA2's being undervolted. Fortunately I have a pretty roomy case/pedestal system so airflow is decent.
Do some of you actually see 10c delta between air and water? I don't think I've ever seen over 3c difference, and I do quite a bit of overclocked benching. That is what finally brought me around to using air/water delta input for curve controllers as hearing the fans ramp up constantly was quite noisy, and unneeded.
I will admit I have overkill on radiators, though, but they are doing exactly as I planned. Less fan rpm and a quieter machine overall.
That's the beauty of having giant cases with pedestals and separate sections or the like. It allows uninterrupted and unpolluted airflow for great deltas.
In a regular PC case a delta of anything under 10 is considered good.
I have seen lots of people claim very low deltas at all times and I always have to wonder if their sensor setup is really giving accurate results because to achieve that requires an extraordinarily efficient system. Without enormous rads the water temp simply has to be higher according to the laws of thermodynamics ... more heat energy is dispersed at higher temp differences. It takes a much larger surface area to disperse a couple hundred watts at 2C compared to 10C
Since I check the calibration of the sensors frequently I'm confident I'm seeing consistent numbers. Add to that I now have delidded my 3770K and that dropped the core temps under load a good bit. I'm very happy with my rig.
Measuring temperature is always subject to the accuracy of the equipment used at a given temperature, though, and fussing over a few C difference probably isn't worthwhile.
Freitag, 8. Februar 2013, 03:01
I have a few suggestions/notes you might consider that could help. One, how steep is your ramp? If it's too steep, you'll get large/noticeable increases in fan speed with small increases in temp. Two, consider a stepped ramp instead of a pure linear one. 25% for dT from 0-3 deg C, 50% from 3-6, 75% from 6-10, 100% for 10+. Those numbers are just a suggestion, but broad plateaus like that might keep the fans from changing speed so frequently. Constant speeds are generally less noticeable/bothersome because the pitch/noise doesn't change. Also, note the speed/voltage where the fan noise becomes apparent and tune your fan curve around that and only go above that when you really need to. I have one fan that's noticeable at 12 volts but near silent at 10 volts, so I keep it at 10 volts or less most of the time.however under load I get regular and pronounced fluctuations of fan speed.
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